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Mµs #LocalNames
No items found in http://search.twitter.com/search.rss?q=%23LocalNames.
talk
The day-page-set for the talk in the local-names-sand-wiki
Read the talk, explained.
Who’s listening to the talk? See the wiki-net talk.
2008-11-04 Talk
local is global
Mattis Manzel:
No, I’m not sure. I’m not totally happy with the local names icon. Maybe something I did before - the opposite of “local” which is “global” - fits better as a local names icon? Every wiki defines itself locally, all wikis use all definitions globally.
Transport that idea already in the icon. Probably.
2008-10-28 Talk
local names = a day page set?
Mattis Manzel:
I wonder what happens when turning the local names into a day-page set.
2008-10-27 Talk
Testing local names for obm-wiki-hive - world-democracy-wiki
obm-wiki-hive - world-democracy-wiki
obm-wiki-hive - world-democracy-wiki - talk
obm-wiki-hive - world-democracy-wiki - edit the day-page talk for today
obm-wiki-hive - world-democracy-wiki - wiki-net Mµs
2008-10-22 Talk
No local names in text links on deep linked pages
Mattis Manzel:
I link all three versions of clean links for every page on the local names to the url of the page. The redirections I had been experimenting with are not required it seems and they cause load.
On deep linked pages I have to write full urls for text links. Local names can not be used. Thus full urls on kabo-wiki-list - local-names-sand-wiki to get the links work on kabo-wiki-center-en - local-names-sand-wiki. The local names within the inclusions work, but all text links directly written on kabo-wiki-list - local-names-sand-wiki have to contain full urls. That’s bearable as it’s for a good purpose.
Remarkable is that local names can be used in image links on deep linked pages. Only text links need full urls when deep linking (= including a page inclusion into another page inclusion).
Newly imported or changed local names take a while to go though the cache. If not all links on this page work yet click refresh circumventing the cache.
The import of local names cross-wiki-hive works. See http://eartwiki.org/cgi-bin/hive/2008-10-22_Talk
I started the local-names-wiki, also to think further about the nice idea of an easy-to-read global file system. More talk about local names is on local-names-wiki - talk.
2008-10-20 Talk
an easy to read global file system
Mattis Manzel:
Testing imported local names from the kabo-wiki-list
- kabo-wiki-list - talk, wider calendar
- kabo-wiki-list - edit the day-page talk for today
- kabo-wiki-hive - kabo-wiki-list - talk-feed
Works, cool.
Btw: To check if it will work when through the cache it’s not sufficient to force a refresh. You have to refresh circumventing the cache. After ~ 3 hours the links will be work without refresh.
Removed from the local names, I fear trouble and a local page name doesn’t make sense locally. Hm.
import of local-names-sand-wiki - local names
later @ irc.freenode #oddmuse
(19:13:27) mattis^: global page names or soup page names - what’s better?
(19:14:33) mattis^: local page names, hive-wide page names and … soup or global?
(19:14:34) TheSheep: domain names
(19:17:24) mattis^: humanity might polulate other planets. Then “global” would be silly.
(19:17:43) mattis^: universal page name?
(19:17:53) mattis^: soup’s shorter
(19:20:25) TheSheep: mattis^: but who’s to control that?
(19:22:54) mattis^: hm. Maybe domain name are important.
(19:24:14) mattis^: socialsynergynet.com - kabo-wiki-hive - sand-wiki-en - sand-box
(19:25:00) mattis^: we could define every web page like that.
(19:27:40) TheSheep: we could call them… Universal Resource Identifiers
(19:27:44) TheSheep: URI for short
(19:27:56) mattis^: ok
(19:28:17) TheSheep: except that maybe we could use “/” instead of “ - “, what do you think?
(19:28:20) mattis^: never got the L and I difference.
(19:28:41) TheSheep: mattis^: URI tells you what it is, URL also tells you where to get it.
(19:29:42) mattis^: no “/” on mac filesystems, The / is not not useable in a local name.
(19:30:03) mattis^: it won’t enter Oddmuse, kensanata said.
(19:30:48) TheSheep: you could also add a protocol in front
(19:31:19) TheSheep: so you know whether it’s the web, twitter, usenet or e-mail
(19:31:36) mattis^: sounds good
(19:31:39) TheSheep: the web URIs could start with http://, for example
(19:31:50) TheSheep: an the e-mail ones with mailto:
(19:33:31) TheSheep: so you could have something like http://sheep.art.pl/misc/sheep.png
(19:36:20) CapnDan?: Wow! That could be a universal code!
(19:36:24) CapnDan?: For locating things!
(19:36:33) CapnDan?: For resources even!
(19:36:51) mattis^: web - sheep.art.pl - miscellaneous - sheep.png
(19:40:47) mattis^: the - is different than the / but it’s very good readable, I think.
(19:41:13) TheSheep: the question is, what’s the difference?
(19:42:43) mattis^: http://sheep.art.pl/misc/sheep.png to web - sheep.art.pl - miscellaneous - sheep.png
(19:43:57) mattis^: even sheep art pl maybe
(19:44:06) mattis^: we’re free
(19:44:17) mattis^: sheer agreement
(19:44:57) mattis^: k, free except for the /
(19:46:31) mattis^: and some more: See http://socialsynergyweb.com/cgi-bin/wiki2/LocalNamesSand/2008-10-06_Talk
(19:55:26) mattis^: if we had a slash only use with spaces: web - sheep art pl / miscellaneous / sheep png
(19:57:13) mattis^: imagine it in the address bar of firefox instead of the URI/URL
(19:57:54) TheSheep: but what’s wrong with URL/URI?
(19:59:08) mattis^: they are unidentifiable tape-worms for grandma Davis and I want granny D. with it.
(19:59:31) mattis^: same for children
(19:59:33) CapnDan .. backs .. slowly … away … from the IRC client
(19:59:35) TheSheep: you think just replacing / with - will solve anything?
(20:00:31) mattis^: replacing . with spaces too. http:// with web, mailto with mail, …
(20:00:39) mattis^: maybe it helps
(20:00:47) mattis^: now that we can
(20:08:13) mattis^: a Russian wiki url would be readable (for Russians)
(20:11:03) *mattis^* is surprised about local names. They make him say things. Strange.
(20:14:58) mattis^: the about.us (that is about us) guys could transfer all their harvest into readable soup names (or global name, dunno yet). (20:16:22) mattis^: web - about us
(20:23:14) mattis^: global names gives more hommage to lion’s local names, soup names is shorter and fits with the rest.
(20:23:52) mattis^: soup.io added a bunch of services to import into soup groups, really many.
(20:24:15) mattis^: hashtags too
(20:24:37) mattis^: aiaiai
(20:25:05) mattis^: we’re getting closer, fasten seat belts, please.
(20:33:47) mattis^: compare the restrictions both systems have, ascii, no spaces to utf-8, spaces
(20:35:05) mattis^: let’s figure out something nice for Granny D. with kensanata and who else might be interested and propose it somewhere.
(20:37:11) mattis^: in books another readability applies than on boxes. I wrote two. Box readability is mind twisted, Granny won’t and she’s right.
(20:39:38) mattis^: This is hard to understand for young geeks probably as they grew up mind twisted.
(20:42:36) mattis^: temporary restrictions of the early net. Connect back to hundred of years old culture of easy to read listings in books.
(20:50:26) mattis^: It’s an act of politeness. actually. It’s: “Granny D., I might be 1337 but I’m still understandable to you.”
(20:52:01) mattis^: a pretty essential act for collab and the hive-mind.
(21:00:25) TheSheep: mattis^: urls can contain any characters, spaces included.
(21:00:32) TheSheep: mattis^: they are just encoded internally.
(21:00:45) TheSheep: mattis^: but web browsers display them as those characters now.
(21:00:48) mattis^: %XX, great.
(21:01:06) mattis^: ah, ok.
(21:01:37) TheSheep: the problem with spaces is that you don’t know anymore where the url ends.
(21:01:39) mattis^: but what an access is this to such an important thing?
(21:02:17) mattis^: thats where “_-_” (space hypen space) jumps in.
(21:03:28) mattis^ hopes to have got you right.
(21:04:52) mattis^: It’s LionKimbro’s late revenge, an easy to read global file system, hihi.
2008-10-19 Talk
Mattis Manzel,
(17:26:58) mattis^: one (in words 1) person came to my session about the wiki-net on the BarCampBerlin3.
(18:10:00) CapnDan?: ugh :-(
(18:42:51) mattis^: that’s a bit disappointing, true. I wasn’t too convincing on the three sentence presentation “what it’s about?” in the morning. Anyhow. I presented in a fuzzy way but got the importance of the experiments of the last two days on the distribution of local names one big soup-wide communicated, I guess.
(18:43:01) mattis^: to 1 person
(18:44:02) mattis^ hopes he tells the others
(18:47:47) mattis^: It’s a pretty brain blowing new situation with these soup wide local names. It’s like a forest, just as it was before, sure. It simply has an additional dimension which I’m not used to. It makes it far more complex and far more beautiful (in edit mode, yeah). Beauty and complexity seem to align.
(18:57:22) mattis^: yes, LionKimbro added a new dimension. New dimensions are sometimes hard to grok. Albert Einstein had his difficult times with that as well.
(18:58:52) mattis^’ wonders with how many dimensions we’ll finish up.
(19:06:48) mattis^: If everybody could change a page name for the entire one big soup with one edit, when everybody could see this edit on a page possibly close by and revert it with a click or two we’d have it.
(19:11:18) mattis^: Then we could agree on a pattern language. Not on a PatternLanguage (only for the geeks) ;)
(19:22:10) mattis^: we’re coming pretty much closer to this basic component of the hive-mind recently. :)
2008-10-18 Talk
(18:47:48) mattis^: hi, back home from BarCampBerlin3. Pretty nice event. I couldn’t follow though trying out what kensanata had told me about local names yesterday somewhere in a corner. It works perfect.
(18:57:06) mattis^: See http://socialsynergyweb.com/cgi-bin/wiki2/KaboWikiList?search=local-names-sand-wiki&dosearch=Los! all links to the local-names-sand-wiki are clean. The local-names-sand-wiki - local names is imported into kabo-wiki-list - local names Bingo!
(19:04:35) mattis^: The local names of the “other” wikis of a hive must be imported into the local names of: the list-wiki (currently called wiki-list) in the hive and the center-wiki (currently called wiki-center) for the appropriate language in the hive.
(19:04:59) mattis^: Can we import imported local names?
(19:05:05) mattis^: If so:
(19:06:09) mattis^: The local names of the list wiki of a hive must be imported into the local names of the main wiki of a hive.
(19:07:03) mattis^: The local names of main wikis of hives must be imported into into the local names of main wikis of hives.
(19:08:05) mattis^: = one big soup
(19:09:56) mattis^: link from any page of any wiki in the soup to any page of any wiki in the soup writing [[hive name - wiki-name - page name]].
(19:14:19) mattis^: if the wiki you link to sits in the same hive you can as well link [[wiki name - page name]]. Both work.
(19:15:20) TheSheep: mattis^: you never read the things Lion has written about Local Names, did you?
(19:15:39) mattis^: nasty question
(19:15:49) mattis^: not really, no.
(19:16:25) mattis^: not even by today, no. But I will.
(19:16:58) mattis^: never found the time, too busy with the wiki net …
(19:17:21) mattis^: while the wolves lick the soup I will read.
(19:18:13) TheSheep: mattis^: because he described exactly what you just did.
(19:19:46) mattis^: I’m sure he did. :)
(19:22:08) mattis^: Or
(19:22:21) mattis^: Sorry for reinventing the wheel.
(19:23:21) mattis^: Wouldn’t have been possible without the jack into your brain.
(19:29:25) mattis^: or without the one into SamRose’s
(19:31:25) mattis^: also the jack into xtof’s soul, they’re all brain/soul jacks.
(19:33:16) mattis^: not to speak of kensanata who rules it all. He’s the brain/soul router kinda.
(19:33:49) mattis^: Laurent Lunati
(19:34:20) mattis^: flamifer
(19:36:12) mattis^: turns on music for leaving the cinema under the sound of soup licking wolves.
- To be completed.
2008-10-17 Talk
Mattis Manzel,
One thing is for sure: we can’t share all page names. The wikis use “short page names”. These are page names, some of them for common pages, not using the precise page name. We want to write: Please force a refresh. We do not want to write: Please kabo-wiki-center-en - force a refresh. Short page names are not precise, sharing them is therefore critical. You can share force a refresh among the wikis in the kabo-wiki-hive, yes. But you can not share it cross hive wise.
Changing the links responsible for the redirection in the local names from local page names - example changes - to soup page names - example kabo-wiki-hive - local-names-sand-wiki - changes - creates problems: Firefox says redirection loop, oddmuse says too many connections. Hm, what a pity. It’s hopefully just a mistake. Or the longer page names are too much. That wouldn’t be nice. Using the [soup page names]? as a base because they are the only ones precise also cross hive wise is important.
I reverted the local names to yesterday’s version, the problematic one is saved on LocalNamesWithProblems - I want folks on the BarCampBerlin3 tomorrow and on Sunday see it run. We’ll figure it out, I’m sure.
2008-10-15 Talk
page names via soup.io
Mattis Manzel:
Ok. The page names contains an inclusion of the [soup goup - kabo-local-names-sand-wiki - page names]?. It is composed of the feeds for the day-page-sets
- local page names
- [hive page names]?
- [soup page names]? <– this one is translated to!
- [short page names]?
- [other page names]?
http://kabowikiallpagenames.soup.io
To achieve precision we need to put the [soup page names]? first on the local names. It carries the translation to the CamelCase page name. All the other translation for the page go to the soup page name. The page local page names translates into local page names. The page [hive page names]? translates to hive page names but could be generated automatically. They hive page names are the [soup page names]? truncated by the “hive-name - “ - remove “kabo-wiki-hive - “ thus.
Currently conflicts KaboWikiList:HivePageNames. Could become KaboWikiList:HiveAllPageNames. Consequently KaboWikiList:HiveAllFaces, …
Ugly is: [hive, all who helps]? = hive, all day-page-sets “who helps” Hm.
Cutting the s and renaming WhoHelps into WhoHelp - hmm.
Anyhow. Except for the [short page names]?, which is a community specific list of shortened page names for external wiki pages, and the local page names which is internal, all day-page sets for page names should be “distributed”. Define the page name (in all possible versions) on the the page local names of the wiki the page makes part of and use the page name in all wikis the page-names-feed is distributed to.
2008-10-11 Talk
instant sharing local names coming soon
Mattis Manzel:
http://socialsynergyweb.com/cgi-bin/wiki2?action=index&match=&near=on&pages=&manual=1&raw=1 is interesting. Far more than the local names of the entire kabo-wiki-hive it seems. You can put it on the near map of another wiki.
Instant local names sharing coming soon. Cool!
testing <rss 10 force_a_refresh kabo-wiki_backup use_a_state-of-the-art_browser>
2008-10-10 Talk
in the end there will be a third level required. But these three will do!
Mattis Manzel:
I wonder what kensanata thinks about extending the LocalNames into the “local & hive & global names? [http://blah/PageName|page name|wiki-name - page name|xyz - wiki - hive - wiki-name - page name]? To be precise we need 4 links: 2 local, 2 external links:
- CamelCase|page|wiki - page|hive - wiki - page
The hive level still misses currently.
No, two do it! Translate on a third page [hive page names]? xyz-wiki-hive - wiki-name - page-name into wiki-name - page-name.
GlobalNames shall be changed into SoupPageNames: local - hive - soup
2008-10-08 Talk
Using local names for feeds in rss inclusions
Mattis Manzel:
The idea is to make <rss [[face-feed]]> work. Currently it doesn’t.
kensanata wrote something for the config file that allows using local names for feeds in rss inclusions:
(10:45:30) kensanata: *MyOldRss = *RSS;
(10:45:30) kensanata: *RSS = *MyNewRss;
(10:45:30) kensanata:
(10:45:30) kensanata: sub MyNewRSS {
(10:45:30) kensanata: my ($maxitems, @uris) = @_;
(10:45:30) kensanata: foreach (@uris) {
(10:45:32) kensanata: if ($LocalNames{$_}) {
(10:45:34) kensanata: $_ = $LocalNames{$_};
(10:45:36) kensanata: }
(10:45:38) kensanata: }
(10:45:40) kensanata: return MyOldRss($maxitems, @uris);
(10:45:42) kensanata: }
(10:45:44) kensanata: Untested.
(10:45:46) kensanata: If you want to try it... :)
You can’t use spaces in local names though. You’d have to use _ instead.
[[local_names]]
Hmm.
Something like a local-names-cloud comes to mind. If I’d use the precise feed title: “kabo-wiki-hive - local-names-sand-wiki - face-feed” in the local names and distribute the local names to the other wikis in the cloud it would be very easy to add the feed to them. Just add [[kabo-wiki-hive - local-names-sand-wiki - face-feed]] to the face-feed inclusion into any of them. Distribute? Hmm.
The wikis in the wiki-net page names should share their local names. If you want to link to the feed for a wiki comfortably using a local feed name instead of the full url it has to be in the wiki-net page names. Every wiki cares for its own local names. Valid for this wiki is the sum of all current pages local names of the wikis in the wiki-net page names.
Wrong. You need another, a second “translation” page like the local names. It can’t be done on one. One page for local names like before and one page for all full page names. The local names contains a translation of changes into http://socialsynergyweb.com/cgi-bin/wiki2/LocalNamesSand/Changes the global names translates the global name [[kabo-wiki-hive - local-names-sand-wiki - changes]] into the same url.
That makes the GlobalNames.
2008-10-06 Talk
You can not use “/” “?” “:” “;” “+” “~” “*” “\” “=” “!” “@” “^” “#” “&” “%” “$” “<” “>” nor “ and ` in local names
MattisManzel:
I can not use the slash “/” and I can not use the colon “:” in local names. A local name like [[friendfeed room: kabo-local-names-sand-wiki]] works on the page local names itself but not elsewhere in the wiki. That’s a pity as “/” and “:” make part of what I use as a “file sytem”, kind of. I will have to use old school clean linking or change someting.
Special characters that can be used in local names:
“,” “.” “_” “-” “°” “(” “)” “§” “²” “³” “µ” also ’ and ´ Also one of my favorites, the “·” (Alt Gr + “.” = the fullstop, on my keyboard) does work.
Note: ’ and ´ work, “ and ` do not work.
Hmm.
I have been using the good old syntax
pretty much from the beginning of the wiki-net.
With the () and ’ or ² or · one could built a “file sytem” à la
- (kabo-wiki-hive)² (local-names-sand-wiki) wiki-node
(kabo-wiki-hive)' (local-names-sand-wiki) wiki-node
(kabo-wiki-hive)·(local-names-sand-wiki) wiki-node
- (kabo-wiki-hive local-names-sand-wiki) wiki-node
(kabo-wiki-hive, local-names-sand-wiki) wiki-node
(kabo-wiki-hive) (local-names-sand-wiki) wiki-node
Hmm.
The colon misses badly.
would be nice. Hmm.
Space out:
- kabo-wiki-hive ··· local-names-sand-wiki ··· wiki-node
- kabo-wiki-hive _ local-names-sand-wiki _ wiki-node
- kabo-wiki-hive . local-names-sand-wiki . wiki-node
Or the “dashomania” variant:
Ok, forget about the colon : http://www.oddmuse.org/cgi-bin/oddmuse/Comments_on_Regular_Expressions_Used You’d have to activate colons in page names. There are no colons in page names on mac file systems. No slash in Oddmuse page names either. There’s the fraction slash ⁄ http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2044/index.htm though.
2008-10-05 Talk
a protocol for computer-readable lists of pages
from irc freenode #oddmuse:
(20:05:25) mattis^: Goodbye [BlahWiki:BlahPage:BlahURL*BlahParameters link], instead [[link]] - and that all over.
(20:05:25) TheSheep: yeah, it’s nice
(20:06:40) mattis^ is just a little ashamed that he didn’t discover it a couple of years earlier.
(20:07:38) mattis^: when Lion made up the local names I was far out with global flashmob. Later I didn’t get it anymore.
(20:08:39) TheSheep: that’s another thing I need to implement in dandelion
(20:09:09) mattis^: ~ it should have made me suspicious that kensanata implemented it so willingly, I didn’t know yet, though.
(20:09:39) mattis^: TheSheep, you do have to, definitely. Hardly anything can be more important.
(20:10:58) mattis^: Lion’s head is magic. How can he have thought such up? I hadn’t even a glimpse of an idea of the wiki-net back then.
(20:11:54) mattis^ hugs LionKimbro
(20:18:14) mattis^: TheSheep, the page-names-feed - as a part of the wiki-net-feed of every wiki - will have to be machine readable (later). Am I right with my way of presenting it in the day-page-set page names? Is there something machine unreadable that I should evite?
(20:20:24) TheSheep: mattis^: there is already a protocol for computer-readable lists of pages
(20:20:26) TheSheep: mattis^: http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?SisterSitesImplementationGuide
(20:21:18) mattis^: cool
2008-10-04 Talk
MattisManzel:
Moving in some notes from the front - face:
Likely a local-names-feed (which turned out as the page-names-feed) makes sense. It could be done on a parallel day-page-set, copying the local names to a day-page “local names” every time when changing the page. So we’d get a history of the local names as well. One big local name (turned out as one big page name) = you see all the page titles created in the one big soup. Some substraction function might make see all new, all unique, the most common page titles … and those with the same local clean link but with a different CamelCase title as well.
Examples:
CamelCase title: Changes, local clean link: changes
CamelCase title: SandBox, local clean link: sand-box
Obervations:
The slash “/” can not be used in local clean links, [[front / face]] doesn’t create a link except on the page local names. Thus old school clean linking is required for local clean page titles containing slashes:
[FrontPage front / face]= front / face
The “?” can not be used in local clean links, [[who helps here?]] doesn’t create a link except on the page local names. Using who help.
2008-10-01 Talk
den Wald vor Bäumen nicht sehen
MattisManzel:
“Not to see the forest because of all the trees”, kind of. My dear net-buddy LionKimbro made up local names in - was it 2005? He’s been enthusiastic about his ideas. Lion’s ideas are all pretty cool, that’s why. He was especially enthusiastic about the local names which confused me as I felt I didn’t grok the idea. I later tried around a bit with the local names using them for some few pages that occur on many wikis but basically I still hadn’t understood. Today I thought: “So, why not use local names for all pages?” - which Lion actually might have had in mind earlier - and about a minute later I thought: “Why not make a local-names-feed?” - Hmm … (2008-10-02: turned out to become the page-names-feed).
What are the local names, applying them properly? They are a list of all pages in a wiki including two informations about each page: the bone-hard CamelCase page title technically used for the page to connect, the clean local beautiful and readable link to the page practically used all over the wiki. Read&write clean local, get connected via CamelCase, strictly devided. Put out a feed how the wiki translates clean to Camel, make it part of the wiki-net and searchable. We’ll see. I’ll likely use page names for the day-page-set rather than local names as they are a list of all pages. Thanks Lion!
A good day. :)
